STAR TREK; Nerdy uniform... for nerds :-)

[Sundance]

Starfleet's always been a military organistion. it holds courts martial, its members wear uniforms, it has a rank structure, it flies around in starships equipped with enough firepower to slag a planet, it defends the state (The United Federation of Planets) against enemies in times of war (The Klingons in "Errand of Mercy", and again in DS9 S4/5 and the Dominion in DS9 S6-7 as well as various incidents involving the Romulans, Gorn, Cardassians, Borg and Talarians as well as the unseen Tzenkethi war) Kirk calls himself a soldier. David Marcus complains scientists are pawns of the military. When they talk of detente and peace with the Klingons in TUC, Cartwright asks if they mean to mothball the fleet. it's clearly a military organisation. it's not militant, but it is military.

[Malcolm Orr]

It's just my opinion, but I think that having wandered off in so many directions in recent years, Star Trek needed to be brought back to it's core (Kirk & Co.), but with a view to launching some new adventures. By that token, this film succeeds.

i don't think Star Trek at it's core is dependent on one crew or one cast. TNG, DS9 and VGR proved that. and the novels certainly do, with the success of New Frontier, Corps of Engineers, Titan and even the IKS Gorkon/Klingon Empire series proves you can still have Trekian tales feature all-alien characters.

Well, that argument works amongst Trekkies - you can write a book about Captain Zog on the USS Minutiae and slap Trek on the title and it 'is' Star Trek, however if you look at things from a pop culture or entertainment point of view only TNG and TOS have been stellar successes ratings wise. I'm not equating quality with ratings, but rather making the point that to a lot of people Star Trek is Kirk and Spock or Picard and Data, less so Janeway, and even less so Sisko and Archer. If I stopped 100 people in the street and asked them to name a captain or character from Star Trek that the vast majority would name someone from TOS or TNG.

Critic-wise DS9 is often the one most highly regarded, so whilst your argument is true - Trek doesn't have to be about one crew - the reality is that if Paramount are going to invest in one crew for a big budget film, it'll be TOS or TNG. The film does now mean that a sequel will be made and that it's likely that it will further cement TOS as the main branch of Trek (up until recently TNG was my preferred version).

As for the wiping Trek history, well definately the familiar universe does remain, this is a new branch 'divergent' universe. Though there will likely be a Picard and a Sisko (and unfortunately a Janeway) in the future of this one too. Arguably this is already a divergent universe anyway - one where Starfleet uses the Enterprise insignia for all ships...

[Thundershot]

Jeez, if we can get into such a deep debate about the new Star Trek film on a site , God only knows what'll happen when the G.I. Joe film is released?

[Space Commander]

Starfleet's always been a military organistion. it holds courts martial, its members wear uniforms, it has a rank structure, it flies around in starships equipped with enough firepower to slag a planet, it defends the state (The United Federation of Planets) against enemies in times of war (The Klingons in "Errand of Mercy", and again in DS9 S4/5 and the Dominion in DS9 S6-7 as well as various incidents involving the Romulans, Gorn, Cardassians, Borg and Talarians as well as the unseen Tzenkethi war) Kirk calls himself a soldier. David Marcus complains scientists are pawns of the military. When they talk of detente and peace with the Klingons in TUC, Cartwright asks if they mean to mothball the fleet. it's clearly a military organisation. it's not militant, but it is military.

In the series bible, Gene Roddenberry was adamant that the crew was NOT military, they belonged to the United Earth Space Probe Agency (a name quoted several times in the earliest episodes), but he gave the crew ranks and uniforms because he was drawing from his experiences as a WWII bomber pilot. He was LIVID with Harve Bennett when he allowed the script for Star Trek II to describe his characters as "military". This altercation is well documented.

Well, that argument works amongst Trekkies - you can write a book about Captain Zog on the USS Minutiae and slap Trek on the title and it 'is' Star Trek, however if you look at things from a pop culture or entertainment point of view only TNG and TOS have been stellar successes ratings wise. I'm not equating quality with ratings, but rather making the point that to a lot of people Star Trek is Kirk and Spock or Picard and Data, less so Janeway, and even less so Sisko and Archer. If I stopped 100 people in the street and asked them to name a captain or character from Star Trek that the vast majority would name someone from TOS or TNG.

Critic-wise DS9 is often the one most highly regarded, so whilst your argument is true - Trek doesn't have to be about one crew - the reality is that if Paramount are going to invest in one crew for a big budget film, it'll be TOS or TNG. The film does now mean that a sequel will be made and that it's likely that it will further cement TOS as the main branch of Trek (up until recently TNG was my preferred version).

As for the wiping Trek history, well definately the familiar universe does remain, this is a new branch 'divergent' universe. Though there will likely be a Picard and a Sisko (and unfortunately a Janeway) in the future of this one too. Arguably this is already a divergent universe anyway - one where Starfleet uses the Enterprise insignia for all ships...

I agree with your comments 100 percent, Malcolm. You've reiterated the exact point I was trying to make earlier.

You're quite right about the ship logos, by the way! That problem first cropped up in Star Trek II. Even in the first movie, the Epsilon 9 crew had their own badges.

As for Nero, there's a deleted scene which explains that after the attack on the Kelvin, he's captured by Klingons and sent to Rura Penthe, which he escapes from almost 25 years later. Nero's appearence in the mind-meld scene was taken from the Rura Penthe footage, as was the moment in the film's trailer where he says "The wait is over!". The Narada destroys the Klingon fleet, as mentioned in the final cut of the film, and Nero is saved... but he's gone completely out of his mind, as evidenced by the rest of the film.


SPACE COMMANDER

[Sundance]

actually, if you wanna quote ratings, each series from TNG to ENT got progressively worse. TNG's declined, DS9's started from somewhere above TNG's S7 ratings and went down, VGR's started below DS9's and went down and ENT's started below VGR's and went down. so statistically speaking, more people would know Sisko than Janeway.

of course 96.7% of statistics are crap.

and if you wanna go on about the 'fleet wide Enterprise logo' thing may i direct your attention to TOS "Court Martial", when Kirk's in the bar at Starbase 11 a number of guys apparently from other ships wear the arrowhead. so

and, if you wanna start going on about Gene VS Harve, bear in mind that was back in 1981 when Gene's ego had been stroked for 10 years by fanboys worshipping him and his humanist secular futurism and created a load of BS that wasn't there. which is why we got the 'evolved' humans of TNG who never bicker, creating a lack of dramatic tension - because Gene believed his own press.

ask any Joe Sixpack on the street if Starfleet's military and chances are most will say 'yes'.

[Chopper]

Effectively, they're living in the Hellish 1985 timeline as drawn on the blackboard by Doc Brown in Back To The Future, Part 2! Joke.

PS. Did you chaps notice the very Shatner-esque pose that Chris Pine struck whilst sitting in the Centre Seat in the film's closing scene?

I noticed that SC. Was quite well done IMO. And yes, they are in the alternate stream, i.e.a parallel universe so the Trek universe we know still exists. The only issue being Spock has disappeared whilst trying to save Romulus.

You know I think you chaps are right in most respects. Scouts has ranks and isn't military, but the Trek crews are from the point of view that they are armed. However their primary objective is exploration.

Sundance and Malc are right the Trek stories aren't dependant on any current or previous characters. "Lower Decks" anyone? Thundershot, yes we do take it too seriously, after the US cartoons of GI Joe all I can say is it can't be worse than that. Trek has higher standards to achieve

Deleted scene? Where? C'mon SC make good I haven't had time to watch OGAM yet, I might do it tonight after the missus goes to bed. I've seen the first 2 parts but have a DVD rip so will sit and watch I think.

As for the later crews, they may not exist. The Butterfly effect could see to that pretty easily. If I were doing it, I'd write them off and start afresh. Even tho this film was average, the future could be f*cking awesome if these chaps pull there structured Hollywood story writing ideas out of there arse and flush them where they belong. I'm hoping its going to happen. We now have a bright and rosey Trek future from this point on and I think that is the most important thing.

[Space Commander]

and if you wanna go on about the 'fleet wide Enterprise logo' thing may i direct your attention to TOS "Court Martial", when Kirk's in the bar at Starbase 11 a number of guys apparently from other ships wear the arrowhead. so
ask any Joe Sixpack on the street if Starfleet's military and chances are most will say 'yes'.

(Sigh...) How did I know the old "Court Martial" arguement was gonna be next? While there is no doubt in my mind that the "real world" reason they wore Enterprise badges was because the costumers ran out of other badges, the "story world" explanation is stated quite clearly in the book Prime Directive; any repair crew assigned to the Enterprise must wear Enterprise badges to indicate which ship they're working on. Enterprise was under repair at the Starbase during the entirety of "Court Martial", which is why those strangers were so uniformed. indeed.
And "any Joe Sixpack" didn't invent Star Trek; like it or not, Gene Roddenberry did.

Perhaps we should just agree to disagree. This thread was supposed to be a well-meant game, and I'm not gonna sit at a computer all day when I could be skydiving in this beautiful sunshine. Let's all chill instead.

And Chopper, my old kiwi pal..., I'm afraid you're just gonna have to wait for the DVD to see that Nero / Klingon stuff!

To quote "The Conscience of the King";
Spock - "How did you know we'd be making a pick-up?"
Kirk - "I'm the Captain."

Well... I'M THE SPACE COMMANDER


SPACE COMMANDER

[Chopper]

And Chopper, my old kiwi pal..., I'm afraid you're just gonna have to wait for the DVD to see that Nero / Klingon stuff!SPACE COMMANDER

You green blooded son of a Vulcan. I demand to know more, nay, I will have to declare shenanigans if the beans aren't spilled forth with. Where's my broom.....

Oh, Homage.

[The Baron]

OGAM is pretty laboured. Nice idea and kudos for trying, but it really should have been trimmed down by half an hour in an editing suite...

[Chopper]

OGAM is pretty laboured. Nice idea and kudos for trying, but it really should have been trimmed down by half an hour in an editing suite...

I did struggle with what I saw, but I'll give it a go. Did you see World enough and time? That was sh*t hot.

Homage