Red Shadow Variant - 2 O'clock & 3 O'Clock Shadows.

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Red Shadow Variant - 2 O'clock & 3 O'Clock Shadows.

Postby Hopper » 23 Jul 2014 16:03

I have been looking more closely at differences in paint work, and have had a chance to really delve into my collection, comparing and contrasting.

I have noticed a slight difference between two T1 Red Shadows (that is, the non-doofus shadows) that may also have relevance to conversations elsewhere about the good quality paint jobs vs the bad quality.

PHOTO 1
Right - Larger shoulder triangle, much thinner, cleaner, brighter white line.
Left - smaller, more scrappy paint, white is greyed out where the black is showing through underneath.

But, look too at the head/eyes:
Right - Downward facing white lines, thinner too. The black band is also not quite to the end of the helmet.
Left - White lines are thicker, and face straight out, and the black band is all the way (just about) to the edge of the helmet.

And again at the arms:

Left - the right arm is bent upwards at about 70 degrees
Right - The right arm is at 90 degrees

This can be seen better in Photo 2

PHOTO 2
The left Shadow's hand is at a different angle to that on the right - roughly 70 degrees vs 90 degrees.
The actual hand and arm are identical, but it seems that the mould that produced each arm was slightly different in that they contorted them slightly.

Very important here is the fact that the legs are far apart in the right Shadow, and close together in the left. This has bearing on the conversations we've been having about paint and moulds - here for example:
http://www.bloodforthebaron.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14151&start=10

PHOTO 3
Shows the clear differences between the paint jobs and the arms.


I have seen this elsewhere too, a different arm bend in a figure (for example, the Red Shadow in the archive is a 70 degree whereas the Type 1 Stakeout in the archive is a 90 degree) and I think it comes down to which arm is used from which mould.

The differences in paintwork may also be connected in that one type of paint may be related to one type of arm, and thus we may be able identify workshops or factories.

Is this a variant?
Not sure, possibly yes, but I would have to see a few more examples before I could say yes for certain.
But I do think the Arm angle is important, not just a product of how it sits on the body.
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Re: Red Shadow - Paint Differences (Variant?)

Postby Chopper » 24 Jul 2014 00:07

I have a dozen shads, pretty sure they are all the top left hand variety.
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Re: Red Shadow - Paint Differences (Variant?)

Postby Hopper » 24 Jul 2014 10:54

Chopper wrote:I have a dozen shads, pretty sure they are all the top left hand variety.



Yeah. I have a sneaking suspicion that the right hand (the 90 degree arm) version is not that common, even on other figures that use that arm - Stakeout, Commandos, etc.

The more I think about it, the more I suspect that this is the product of two different factories, and that this first phase of :AFLogo: - Phase 2a, can be broken down into two factories. This makes sense given that they would already have been using two moulds/factories by Phase 1b in the original :originalaf: (see http://www.bloodforthebaron.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14238 for a discussion).

This also raises the ungodly spectre of the possibility that there may be two versions of all figures in the first wave (Phase 1a) and that the only way to tell would be to check the finer details such as painting.

Of course, I could just be frothing at the mouth and jabbering on about pointless minor details... but who's counting?
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Re: Red Shadow - Paint Differences (Variant?)

Postby Hopper » 24 Jul 2014 11:38

FURTHER RESEARCH HAS DISPROVED THIS FOR THE RED SHADOWS - SEE BELOW

OK
So, I think I have an answer

One factory, two moulds producing arms and legs.

Arms:
Arm Mould #1 - the arms are at 90 degrees.
Arm Mould #2 - the arms are at 70 degrees.

Legs:
Leg Mould #1 - the legs are cut in such a way that the legs are spread when attached to the body
Leg Mould #2 - The legs are cut so that they are closer together when attached to the body.

All of which are thrown into a large basket from which they are attached to the body by production line staff who don't care what leg goes where.
So, any figure could have any leg or any arm, I don't think it is significant as such.
So, my two Series 1 Commandos (T1 and T2) both have 90 degrees arms, but one has spread legs (T1 - no coloured sidepacks), and one has close legs (T2 - coloured sidepacks).
But it could just as easily been the other way round.
The archive showing the German Stormtrooper shows spread legs both with helmet decal and without, whereas I have a closed legs without.

We can then assume that the same luck of the draw was continued into Phase 2a, hence the Shadows with spread vs closed legs and 70 vs 90 arms.

I will do some more research to see if there is a connection between the quality of paint and any of these variables.
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Re: Red Shadow - Paint Differences (Variant?)

Postby Hopper » 04 Aug 2014 22:07

Actually, the quality of the paint and its relationship with the legs and arms may be significant. It may be a way of telling which factory did what figure.
I'll get on it tomorrow.
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Re: Red Shadow - Paint Differences (Variant?)

Postby Hopper » 05 Aug 2014 14:55

As Promised.
Ta-dah!
I think I may have identified a variant Red Shadow.
I delved into the mists of plastic heaven, and have come up with the following. I am convinced that they are two types, and present to you my evidence for peer scrutiny and review.

OK. In as a far as I can see, the following seems to be correct in all examples I have seen so far:

Type 1 (The 2 O’Clock Shadow)
The right arm is at an angle of roughly 70 Degrees (i.e. bent slightly upward, at 2 O’Clock) covering the top of the grenades in the belt. The shoulder paint is of an inferior type; the black triangle is short and pushed further to the back of the shoulder, making it difficult to see when viewed face on. The white painted line applied over the top of the triangle is thick, and usually of a greyish colour, especially with playwear. It seems that the 70 Degree Shadow has closed legs, although this is not certain, and more research is needed before we can state this as an identifying feature.
The Red Shadow in the BFTB archive is of the 70 Degree type.
It is left in the above pictures, except the last, in which it is on the right.


Type 2 (The 3 O’Clock Shadow)
The right arm is at an angle of roughly 90 Degrees (i.e. straight across the body, at 3 O’Clock), and the top of the grenades in the belt is clearly visible when viewed face on. The shoulder paint is of a superior type; the black shoulder triangle is long, and is centrally placed on the shoulder, and is visible from the front when viewed face on. The white painted line applied over the top is thin and accurate, and is a clean white colour, even with playwear. The 90 Degree Red Shadow often has comparatively wide legs, although this is not certain, and more research is needed before we can state this as an identifying feature.
It is on the right in the above pictures, except the last in which it on the left.

It is worth noting that the white eyes and the black eye slits of both Types 1 and 2 are of varying thicknesses and forms, and that this is not indicative of the type as such, rather it is the product of whoever is applying the transfers/paints and their skill and sobriety.

Given that the superior paint seems to be associated with later figures than the earlier, I would suggest the 2 O'Clock Shadow is the earliest, and the 3 O'Clock Shadow is later.

So, I propose we have the following 3 Types of Red Shadow then:
Red Shadow Type 1 - The 2 O'Clock Shadow
Red Shadow Type 2 - The 3 O'Clock Shadow
Red Shadow Type 3 - The Doofus Shadow.
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Re: Red Shadow - Paint Differences (Variant?)

Postby Quickfire » 05 Aug 2014 23:50

Hopper wrote:
Leg Mould #1 - the legs are cut in such a way that the legs are spread when attached to the body
Leg Mould #2 - The legs are cut so that they are closer together when attached to the body.

All of which are thrown into a large basket from which they are attached to the body by production line staff who don't care what leg goes where.
So, any figure could have any leg or any arm, I don't think it is significant as such.

I will do some more research to see if there is a connection between the quality of paint and any of these variables.


You may have cracked this ... but still raises a few issues including type of plastic pellets used in the mould, did that affect the final form of the legs? Also are there specific batches- at least legs were matched as similar pairs before fitting unless we have individual figures with a tassled and non-tassled leg in the Friday afternoon collections. Along with painting there does then perhaps seem to be a series of phases involved.

But, if different types of plastic are used systematically and / or painting techniques and formats, are there different factories as well as different phases? Or just different teams at the same place? Different shifts on moulding, shifts on painting? Did they have to meet certain production targets and thus changed methods etc.?

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Re: Red Shadow - Paint Differences (Variant?)

Postby Hopper » 01 Nov 2014 15:50

Quickfire wrote:You may have cracked this ... but still raises a few issues including type of plastic pellets used in the mould, did that affect the final form of the legs? Also are there specific batches- at least legs were matched as similar pairs before fitting unless we have individual figures with a tassled and non-tassled leg in the Friday afternoon collections. Along with painting there does then perhaps seem to be a series of phases involved.

But, if different types of plastic are used systematically and / or painting techniques and formats, are there different factories as well as different phases? Or just different teams at the same place? Different shifts on moulding, shifts on painting? Did they have to meet certain production targets and thus changed methods etc.?

:quick:



Actually, mein freund, YOU may have cracked it.
I have been reviewing all the possibilities of the leg issues, and looking again at the 2 O'Clock and 3 O'Clock shadows.
I now think that it is all a matter of how and where the arms/legs are applied to the main body. The mould is the same in each type - there is no difference in the arms or legs as such, just the way they sit on the figure.
Checking the body mould and how the two parts are joined shows minor differences in the way they line up, etc.
This, along with minute differences in the amount and type of plastic within the arms/legs, I now believe causes the distinct variants.

The differences in the paint can indeed be explained through human error, different batches, different shifts, different factories, etc.

Right, so, as a result of this, I am now retiring the 3rd Red Shadow Variant, meaning there are now only two variants - Dufus and Non-Dufus.

BTW, does anyone know if a Dufus version of Red Vulture exists?
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Re: Red Shadow Variant - 2 O'clock & 3 O'Clock Shadows.

Postby Quickfire » 08 Nov 2014 22:51

Hopper wrote:Actually, mein freund, YOU may have cracked it.
I have been reviewing all the possibilities of the leg issues, and looking again at the 2 O'Clock and 3 O'Clock shadows.
I now think that it is all a matter of how and where the arms/legs are applied to the main body. The mould is the same in each type - there is no difference in the arms or legs as such, just the way they sit on the figure.
Checking the body mould and how the two parts are joined shows minor differences in the way they line up, etc.
This, along with minute differences in the amount and type of plastic within the arms/legs, I now believe causes the distinct variants.

The differences in the paint can indeed be explained through human error, different batches, different shifts, different factories, etc.

Right, so, as a result of this, I am now retiring the 3rd Red Shadow Variant, meaning there are now only two variants - Dufus and Non-Dufus.

BTW, does anyone know if a Dufus version of Red Vulture exists?


Image

:stake: WAHEY!

:quick:

PS. Dunno about dufus :vulture: , guessing low probability.

PPS. Whole load of other issues still loom ... guessing someone retired and assembly was more random, could still be one assembly line and two different factories ... ... ...
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Re: Red Shadow Variant - 2 O'clock & 3 O'Clock Shadows.

Postby SteveD » 09 Nov 2014 10:47

I don't think I have a dufus red vulture, if that's any help?
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